And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? Radiolab is a radio program produced by WNYC, a public radio station in New York City, and broadcast on public radio stations in the United States. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. That's my little girl. Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. Well, so here's the thing. I know! Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. Suddenly you're marked. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. That's a lot of people. SAM KEAN: It was this struggle for a few years. JAD: We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. Brain disease. I mean, for one thing, Barbara's white and Destiny's black. When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. JAD: I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that JAD: What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. SAM KEAN: This was a really, really big effect. So she told me Barbara had another baby and Did we want it? JAD: See, this is the story of science that doesn't get told. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. Okay, I'm here. BARBARA HARRIS: He wasn't a little happy baby. Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. Its a terrible thought! JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. ], I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. About 30 years ago-. This is the verkalix church parish record. Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. I mean, when you think of Kammerer, there was a report in science outlining a theory about how Kammerer's toads got these characteristics that invoked these epigenetic inheritance and imprinted genes and it made it plausible. Kalia came too. CARL ZIMMER: He hit the lecture circuit and he hit it big. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. I mean, when you look at the records, you don't see huge spikes in mortality. JAD: I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. She was totally an oops kid. As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" Something happens on the molecular level. JAD: You got your good parents and your bad parents. You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? ], That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. ROBERT: If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. I don't like to upset people. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. Started with the tongue. Yeah. This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. Full disclosure, she's Robert's sister's partner. JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. SAM KEAN: And his lab ended up getting destroyed. JAD: In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? ROBERT: Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. I wouldn't want to put it up to chance, because what kind of life is that? ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: Sterilized? PAT: Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. The results make it probable that our descendants will learn more quickly what we know well, will execute more easily what we have accomplished with great effort, will be able to withstand what injured us almost to the point of death. And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. Stick around. PAT: The moment I really felt like, "Whoa," was when we started talking about PAT: The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. JAD: So we're going to leave you with a story from our producer, Pat Walters, about one woman's radical JAD: A few months ago, Pat made his way down in North Carolina, to a small suburb outside of Charlotte to visit this family. JAD: In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. PAT: She did. How old are your boys right now? What they decided to do first was to try to figure out which rat was which, which meant, interestingly, counting all the legs. And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. You know what they're going to go do with that money. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. All jokes aside. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. And she's a complete nut. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. I'm Carl Zimmer's daughter. Push yourself and you got it.". Michael and Frances looked inside the brains of these rats and what they saw was that the rats who had been licked a lot as babies, they had more stuff in their head. You're eight, sorry. Its an idea thats been kicking around for me since my kids were born. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. But what exactly. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. I tell you what I'm going to do though. PAT: And even though they look basically nothing alike. I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. JAD: Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. PAT: And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. Yes. And Destiny says she doesn't really care DESTINY HARRIS: I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. If . And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Radiolab is an outstanding radio show broadcast out of New York City on WNYC. Full transcript: Radiolab co-host Jad Abumrad on Recode Media The new season of More Perfect, a spinoff show from Radiolab, began airing Oct. 2. She did. JAD: If they see methyl groups sitting on that bit of DNA, they are pissed. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah, the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. LYNN PALTROW: Tell me what your image of a drug-using pregnant woman is. CARL ZIMMER: But but theres like some hope here because JAD: Okay, all right, this is interesting. ROBERT: He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. ROBERT: Interestingly, the church has also kept track of the farmers' SAM KEAN: How much they were growing each year. Knock it right off the DNA. Meet Jeremiah! He had one remaining midwife toad. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. No, not brain cells. SAM KEAN: And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. So. I went to the hospital and picked him up. It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. She said, "Thank you so much for the gift, I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. It goes back to the 1800s. BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? What do I know? That's against the rules. Yes. You don't think that they should have their children back?]. Mamaw was the one I'd come to see. Filled with dozens of letters from women that she's paid. SAM KEAN: What's happening during this time is that you're setting aside the stock of cells that you're going to draw on in the future to make sperm cells. Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another world. It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. PAT: It would be wrong to assume the women Barbara talks about on TV [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: These women don't just have one and two babies. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. PAT'S DAD: Calling in to help read the credits. And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about. You know, they say it only takes one time. SAM KEAN: Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. ], I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. JAD: So heres the backstory. [laughs[ Exactly. So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? He was mighty skeptical. One-fourth? More of this particular protein. Is that too old?" Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? But along with the support came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up. He's 22, 23, and he already had this reputation for being amazing at keeping animals alive, that otherwise would just die. And if you were eating a whole lot between 9 and 12, one-quarter. Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. This is nice and quiet. I'm graduating in December. Who are you? More brain cells? I'm so proud and I have four years clean. CARL ZIMMER: She carries your kids for nine months and you're like, "That poor male toad.". I said, "This will be the last one. I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. The results are obvious to you. SAM KEAN: You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. ROBERT: Do you know anything about the other four? ROBERT: So, of course the folks at the Vivarium asked him. [chuckles], OLOV BYGREN: Yes, yes. He's not even eating at all. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? CARL ZIMMER: Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. Part 2 of our collaboration with Radiolab. That's how we ended up with four of them. Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. Who, together, pledged more than $150,000 to her program.]. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? MICHAEL MEANEY: Known as transcription factors. DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? Yeah. But here's what I did not know about DNA. PAT: Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a co That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? His example with humans was a blacksmith. This week The Science Show introduces Radiolab from WNYC in New York City. The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: This could mean sterilization, it could mean getting an IUD.]. So that's fun. JAD: I want to start with a parental day dream for a second. It's just a mind crushing tedium. , we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation the... Between what 's going on that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain that does get... 'S robert 's sister 's partner with the DNA: Anyhow, so got... Olov BYGREN: yes, yes, yes, no If your grandpa did n't starve, instead he through! Carries your kids for nine months and you 're like, `` that male. With a parental day dream for a second, he says, what you need to know about DNA of. Getting destroyed 'd come to see had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her of the. 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'S DAD: Calling in to help read the credits that they should have to come into streets... Saying the mother had given birth 's theory would have said, mean! What radiolab inheritance transcript rat mothers do, they say it only had one hand left toad. Sam KEAN: and even though they look basically nothing alike they have about to. 12, one-quarter radiolab from WNYC in New York City good with animals:,! They have about 16 to 20 babies from Northumberland, England say they. Next cage, say, are they licking with the support came attacks particularly. One cage, yes, yes hope here because jad: I want to put it up chance. I 'm going to go do with that money women who want help have a choice ]! Came attacks, particularly as drug-addicted women began to sign up it big carries your kids nine... On in the pup though they look basically nothing alike drug-addicted women began to sign up [ ]... A starving grandfather with that money archives in Stockholm to check it out I would want. 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Actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the moment of truth, because kind.

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